Torah and Tradition, Answering Criticism Pt. 3

I have been having great fun answering some well-worded critical questions brought by Charles, a Christian who inclines towards Israel but who has been disillusioned by some anti-church, immature voices calling themselves Messianic Jewish. In this part of the series, I will tackle a few more of Charles’ critical comments and questions.

Charles said:

5) I am a follower of the new covenant written on my heart. Does NOT mean that I ignore the old, but it is a guideline and even Jesus summed it all up in the two great commandments. We are to love God with all our hearts plus … and our neighbours as ourselves.
6) Even tho I think it is wonderful if you feel like celebrating Shabat on Friday to Saturday, I don’t think God is up there saying, ” SORRY YOU ARE CELEBRATING MY SABBATH ON SUNDAY, SO YOU JUST DON’T MEASURE UP. YOU ARE A SECOND-CLASS BELIEVER” I have SO MUCH trouble believing that would be his attitude.
7) A kosher diet may be great. I do eat all the healthy foods I can. But to me this is God’s diet given for the time period since the Israelites could not possibly understand about germs and bacteria and meat spoiling in hot desert suns and Best Buy was just too far away to purchase a refrigerator! Perhaps if a person is NOT healthy, it may be great to practise kosher to see if it makes you better. But pills sometimes make me better and I will NOT eat them regularly!

I am particularly interested in answering #5. The New Covenant is rather a soapbox of mine. I’d like to address a few myths about the New Covenant, some of which may be implied in Charles’ comment and some of which may not:

Myth #1: The New Covenant is roughly synonymous with the New Testament. (Note: Even a lot of people in MJ call the New Testament the New Covenant or B’rit Hadasha).

Myth #2: The New Covenant is now.

Myth #3: The New Covenant is God’s covenant with the church.

Myth #4: The Torah is written on the hearts of all Yeshua-followers and is synonymous with the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Let me tackle each myth with the corresponding reality from Jeremiah 31:31-34:

“Behold, the days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

Reality #1: The Hebrew Bible (a.k.a. Old Testament) is not the Old Covenant nor is the New Testament the New Covenant. The Hebrew Bible and New Testament are collections of writings considered canonical or divinely inspired (I believe them to be inspired and infallible, thought there are textual issues). The New Covenant is not a collection of writings. It is not even a law code. It is an agreement God makes with Israel and Judah about his ways with his people.

Reality #2: The New Covenant is with Israel and Judah. Here is the key: as with the Abrahamic and even the Sinai covenants, there are implications for the nations whenever God makes a covenant with Israel. God’s blessing flows through Israel to the nations. This is a point that deserves extensive development, but I am trying to be brief. Here is an example of what I mean: Yeshua’s salvific death on the cross was for Israel, to rescue Israel from exile and the curse of Torah, yet all from the nations who are drawn to Yeshua’s sacrifice receive the same benefits as Israel. It was this way in Torah as well. Gentiles drawn to Israel’s God received blessing (Naaman is a favorite example).

Reality #3: The New Covenant is not now. It has begun in the same way the Age to Come has begun. It is only here in shadow. The reality has yet to arrive. Yeshua said his blood was the New Covenant (Luke 22:20). Paul said he was a servant of the New Covenant (2 Cor. 3:6). Yet when the New Covenant is here, things will be quite different: all people will know God. We will not have to teach people to know God. Anyone can see this is not yet true. Yeshua’s words could be paraphrased: “This cup, poured out for you, is the Age to Come in my blood.” He was announcing a profound inbreaking of the future into the present, not a realized consummation of all things.

Reality #4: “Torah written on our hearts” is not a present reality. I can understand how it is simple to equate Torah-on-hearts with our present experience of the Holy Spirit. I think this is a great mistake. I think it is better associated with Deuteronomy 30:6, “I will cirumcise your heart . . . so that you will love HaShem your God with all your heart.” That is, our present experience of the Holy Spirit is special, but we have not yet graduated to perfect love. No, when Torah-on-hearts is here, then “And you shall again obey the voice of the Lord and keep all his commandments that I command you today” (Deut. 30:8). That is, Torah-on-hearts means perfect obedience and love. Not here yet.
………………………

In Charles’ sixth point, he has apparently experienced some sort of anti-church rhetoric about the Sabbath and Sunday worship. Let me say categorically, Messianic Jews coming from a mature understanding of Torah and non-Jews do not say such things. We are not against Sunday worship. Charles, I’ll gladly go to church with you on any Sunday and worship right with you. You are my brother, not my enemy, and Sunday is a fine day to worship.

Sabbath is a day of worship only because it is the only day not devoted to work in ancient Israel. God never mandated a worship service on Saturday (or Sunday). These are traditions.

The anti-church rhetoric of some, that Sunday worship is a sign of pagan influence, is dead wrong. Yeshua rose on Sunday. It is a very early tradition, and a good one, that Christians worship on Sunday. It should not be a rule (Thursday church is good too), but a tradition of enduring beauty in remembering the day of Yeshua’s raising. If anyone would care to debate me on this, I would be delighted. Email me at derek4messiah@gmail.com
…………………….

Finally, I will answer Charles’ seventh point very briefly. He has apparently been exposed to the fallacious teaching that the kosher laws are about health. Let me say this loud and strong: God did not give the dietary laws of Leviticus 11 for health reasons, but for reasons of sanctity and to communicate to Israel that God is not a God of death, but of life. That is, the dietary laws are symbolic, not a pre-scientific system of healthy diet that can now be dispensed with.

For those who will want to write me and tell me all the things they heard about how bad pork is for you or how gross it is to eat bottom-feeders, etc., please study the Jewish opinion on this subject. You can only be an amateur if you claim knowledge on this topic and have not read the rabbinic point of view on the matter. I also issue these challenges: carp is kosher but catfish is not and yet both are bottom-feeders, rabbit is pretty healthy but not kosher, ostrich is very healthy but not kosher, chickens eat their own excrement as well as bugs and worms, and nowhere does Leviticus 11 say anything about health. Learn what the impurity laws of Israel were all about. You could read Jacob Milgrom’s fine set of commentaries on Leviticus to learn about these things (or my book, A New Look at the Old Testament).

Charles, those of us who are serious about Judaism and Yeshua would never hit you with the awful things you refer to in points 6 and 7. We are not anti-church or anti-Christian. We are all part of the Body of Messiah, Jew and non-Jew, distinct yet in unity. That is the way it should be.

About Derek Leman

IT guy working in the associations industry. Formerly a congregational rabbi. Dad of 8. Nerd.
This entry was posted in Christian, Judaism, Messianic Jewish, Replacement Theology, Supersessionism, Theology, Torah. Bookmark the permalink.

17 Responses to Torah and Tradition, Answering Criticism Pt. 3

  1. jewtina says:

    i have been studying that Yeshua rose on Saturday night, not Sunday morning as the day started at sundown not “sun up”.
    You do not believe this?
    By the way, I love your blog..
    Shalom

  2. A Simple Jew says:

    Derek

    Strong Work. I especialy liked your response to #4. You may know but others may not that this association of the New Covenant as described by Jeremiah and the changing of heart described in Deut 30 was noted by traditional Jewish commentators. Have you read Ramban on this? It makes an interesting read for Christians.There is a hint of the new birth in the way the Hebrew reads.

    I think the question discussed here is possibly the single most pressing issue for the Jewish people. What do these verses mean and how should we respond to them? What does it mean to turm? How will this happen?

    Something for us all to meditate on humbly and to pray for insight.

    Menachem

  3. A Simple Jew says:

    To Jewtina

    I was always under the impresion that the early church met on Saturday night as well. A practice that I commend for mixed congregations in the spirit of Ephesians.

    I defer however to Dereks knowledge in this area and will refrain from the debate offline.

    Menachem

  4. Jewtina:

    Thanks for keeping me on my toes about Yeshua rising on Sunday. Here are some points for consideration:

    1. Sunday begins Saturday at sundown on the Jewish calendar (Yom Rishon or the First Day of the Week).

    2. The women found the tomb empty at dawn on Sunday. He rose before dawn, but the text doesn’t say how long before dawn.

    3. Schemes by which peolpe determine a precise time of thje resurrection are all doomed to fail, but by the Jewish definition, it was Sunday.

    4. Even by the Roman definition, Sunday begins at midnight. I doubt he rose before midnight.

    Hope this helps a bit. Thanks for reading the blog.

    Derek

  5. Menachem:

    About the early congregations meeting on Saturday night, which would be havdallah, there is one good piece of evidence that this was a practice: Acts 20:7ff. This was in Troas and Paul spoke until midnight, causing one audience member to fall asleep and out the window to his death. I’d say this was a Saturday night havdallah meeting.

    Yet the evidence for Sunday worship as the regular scheme in Asia Minor comes from the Didache, c.125. It was called The Lord’s Day. Revelation, written in the context of Asia Minor only 35 years earlier, makes reference to The Lord’s Day, possibly meaning Sunday as well (the close proximity in time and place to Didache would suggest Rev 1:10 means Sunday).

    Now, when later writers called Sunday a new Sabbath, they were being anti-Semitic. But when the non-Jews decided to worship on the day Yeshua was raised, they were simply starting new traditions and beautiful ones at that.

    Derek

  6. Menachem says:

    Acts 20:7ff. This was in Troas and Paul spoke until midnight, causing one audience member to fall asleep and out the window to his death. I’d say this was a Saturday night havdallah meeting.<<<<

    This is what I would have thought. Also there is Jewish tradition about Moshiach and Havdallah.

  7. A Simple Jew says:

    Derek:

    Torah-on-hearts means perfect obedience and love. Not here yet<<<

    I agree with you. What then is the basis for the opposing view? One hears it frequently from Christians and MJ leadership. Does it have any antiquity in Christianity?

    Menachem

  8. Pati in WA says:

    Derek –

    Amen! Thank you for this – especially #5 on the new covenant!

    Shalom!

  9. Derek:

    In response to your statements:

    “In Charles’ sixth point, he has apparently experienced some sort of anti-church rhetoric about the Sabbath and Sunday worship. Let me say categorically, Messianic Jews coming from a mature understanding of Torah and non-Jews do not say such things. We are not against Sunday worship. …

    “The anti-church rhetoric of some, that Sunday worship is a sign of pagan influence, is dead wrong. Yeshua rose on Sunday. It is a very early tradition, and a good one, that Christians worship on Sunday.”

    I beg to differ with you on this. The “very early tradition” was what we would call Saturday night worship, not Sunday worship. The Sunday morning worship services were from the influences of the worshippers of the Sun god (Sunday — Day of the Sun God).

    You make the point:

    “It should not be a rule (Thursday church is good too), but a tradition of enduring beauty in remembering the day of Yeshua’s raising.”

    I would agree, as long as it does not displace Shabbat, which brings us to:

    “Sabbath is a day of worship only because it is the only day not devoted to work in ancient Israel. God never mandated a worship service on Saturday (or Sunday). These are traditions.”

    I beg to differ with you again! Most people think the commandments for Shabbat are exclusively found in the Ten Commandments, and so miss:

    Leviticus 23:3
    ‘For six days work may be done , but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a ***holy convocation***. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the LORD in all your dwellings.

    The word translated as “convocation” is “miqra,” which means a sacred assembly for reading and worship.

    Other than that, I think you’re right on in what you say here.

  10. A Simple Jew says:

    Derek:

    Shabbat among other things is “Mikreh Kodesh Zecher L’itziot Mitzrayim” ( The above verse cited by Adam in combination with Deut 5:15). There is no question that it is a day of worship for Jews.

    As to whether or not the command to “remember Egypt” is incumbent upon non Jews, I will leave as an open question for those who understand Christian theology better than I do.

  11. Simple Jew/Menachem:

    I am saying that rest is D’Oraita (the written command) and worship is D’Rabbanan (the traditional command).

    If you know of a rabbinic source which interprets MIQRA QODESH in Leviticus 23:3 as a command to gather in the synagogue or at the temple, please let me know the source. I don’t think you’ll find one.

    Meanwhile, I’d refer you to Jacob Milgrom’s Anchor Bible commentary on Leviticus. It is three volumes and it is the best of the best. I know few commentaries on any book of the Bible that compare in scholarship, thoroughness, and authority. Milgrom knows his rabbinic sources as well as Near Eastern sources, New Testament, Second Temple, and everything. I cite him as my authority for the meaning of MIQRA QODESH.

    Derek

  12. A Simple Jew says:

    Derek

    Hmmm. Congrats you are thinking Jewishly.Well on the way to being a rabbi Reb Derek.

    Intriguing points. I dont know for certain or even at all but I have doubts about getting a consensus of sources to agree that worship per ce is D’Rabbanan alone. Prayer is after all the service of the heart and the minyan is felt to be biblical. As with many things if this is discussed in Talmud then there could very well be dispute on whether it is or isnt a biblical command.

    That of course is not quite what you said. You refer specifically to this phrase in context of Shabbat and you might be correct.But this may help some folks see how the question would be ased Jewishly.

    I dont have time to research it now but I will. Its an interesting and complex question.

    If I might suggest it occurs to me that what we might find is that we are expected to gather to daven EVERYDAY. We then proclaim Shabbat by varying the usual. Changing Amidah adding to our Aliyah adding on Musaf etc.

    As with remembering and guarding there is often more than meets the eye biblically. Why do we bless wine and bread but not meat? And how does it all fit together? To research this properly will probably involve several areas of law and not just those pertaining to Shabbat.

  13. A Simple Jew says:

    Hi Derek

    As I suspected, the whole question Of Mikre Kodesh is nuanced and complicated. First of all I noted that the Artscroll translates this as a “calling”. I figure that this is as in when Hashem “called” Moshe to the tent of meeting “vaYichra”. This is solely my inference and I caution you that it comes from a simple Jew and not an expert.

    Next I notice that Rashi to Lev 23:35 which speaks of Sukkot says that the phrase when applied to a festival means sanctify it with clean clothing and with its own prayer. Rosh Hashanah 32a is referenced in the commentary to indicate that indeed this involves an addition to the Amidah. So it goes…..

    This can be found in The Saperstein Edition Artscroll Leviticus with Rashi etc R. Yisrael Isser Zvi Herczeg Mesorah Publications 1999 Brooklyn NY

  14. A Simple Jew says:

    I chased down the reference to Rosh Hashannah 32a. Its quite interesting in that it reveals a characteristic Jewish approach to a perplexing question like this. The question Jewishly cannot be answered simply with reference to a good lexicon. Or to looking at the verse in context.

    When one looks at the oral tradition, one is struck that the participants are talking as if they have access to something that is acknolwedge in common that we dont have. What they often are discussing is the derivation for something or why if something is already known already would an apparant redundancy appear in the text? Here the discussion is whether Mikra Kodesh means to sanctify Rosh Hashannah by refraining from doing Melacha ( forbidden work ) on it. Rabbi Akiva appears to disagree with this limitation since this is already implied in the use of the word Sabbath. If this were all there were to it it would be redundant to add the additional phrase “Mikra Kodesh”. Thus he argues that Mikre Kodesh is inserted “to teach us to insert Kiddush Ha Yom” in the Amidah.

    And so it goes….

  15. dishtvdeal says:

    Boy you guys like to get lost in theology!!!

    “Charles, those of us who are serious about Judaism and Yeshua would never hit you with the awful things you refer to in points 6 and 7. We are not anti-church or anti-Christian. We are all part of the Body of Messiah, Jew and non-Jew, distinct yet in unity. That is the way it should be.”

    Finally we agree about this. However there are those who DO. Some call themselves the remnant and adherents of Apostolic Judaism.

    However I do not agree with your myths entirely.
    Remember that all prophecies can have a partial fulfillment NOW and a future fulfillment later. This is not hard to believe since God is timeless. For him 1 day is as a 1000 years.

    I will tell you why.

    I understand that these have not happened entirely but the Holy Spirit sure does a good job of teaching through the heart. I instinctively know if I have done something wrong [no one is perfect…may miss a few times]. And it is not because I know the Torah. However it IS because I know that I am to love God with all my heart and my neighbour as myself. What more can there be? Are we to love rocks? Or a book? Or are we to love GOD and NEIGHBOUR?

    The main reason that we still need teachers is that we really do not KNOW GOD the way we should. We DO DEVOTIONS. Ha! I can just see God saying as part of the ten commandments. THOU SHALT DO DEVOTIONS AND READ AT LEAST 3 CHAPTERS so you know me! A likely story! We read his letters to others and find messages to ourselves, which is fine. God is UNLIMITED! GOD UNLIMITED! Like that for a company name! Why don’t we seek HIM now BEFORE we open a book from the past? Because we want to do stuff. We want a pastor to explain everything to us. We are lazy Christians! When you are just honest with God and say, “Okay God, what have you got to say to me today,” Do you think he will NOT answer you? If you do, read Luke.

    Imagine Abraham trying to figure out what God wanted him to do. How did HE KNOW it was God talking to him? And yet he did okay except for listening to his wife too much! (:-)> Especially when she told Abraham to sleep with Hagar. Look at the problems that LISTENING caused!!! YOI. YOI YOI YOI!

    We want a formula, a ritual, we crave habit. Often that is good but taken TOO FAR, it is bad, because we can seek the letters INSTEAD of the writer of the letters!

    Again let me emphasize, NO CRITICISM INTENDED. And you are right about having rules and regulations pushed at me and as if I have to worry that the days of the week are named after pagan Gods. Who cares? YOU MAY BE NAMED AFTER A PAGAN TOO! But GOD is in the REDEMPTION BUSINESS. He could care less if you call it Thursday or the fifth day of the week. And so what if it was named for the Viking God Thor? God is a redeemer! To say HE CANNOT redeem a day, a person, a time is just your basic BLASPHEMY!

    [By the way I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. It is time to reclaim the proper use of CAPS]

    All I can say is, ask yourself this question, “DO I know when I do wrong? [most times that is] If you answer YES. Then how do you know?

    I submit to you that the reason is that THE LAW is written on YOUR HEARTS!
    God Bless you!
    Charles

  16. falconress says:

    Shalom Derek–
    I guess the big point Charles is missing here is that Shabbat on the 7th day, a day of rest and mikreh kodesh, is a pre-Torah, creation principle. If a person cannot even give G-d sovereignty over time and order in the universe, then how can a person even go another step in claiming to love and follow Him? If we can’t even accept all of His Word from the first chapters of B’reishit, aren’t we starting right out by questioning the all-knowing Eternal sovereign? We don’t get to “set the order.” He makes clear from B’reishit 1:1 that HE DOES. We can choose to walk in step with Him and His handling of time, or not. The implications of that are huge, which He makes abundandtly clear to us.

    Now…on to my real question/commentary. I found your blog by searching for discussion on the words mikreh kodesh. This is because I’m wrestling with how to really keep Shabbat in a scriptural way. You seem to somewhat share what I’m coming to believe…that we are in error when we equate “sabbath observance” with “congregational worship and/or study.” Neither do I find significant scriptural evidence, even on the deep Hebrew root word level, that mikreh kodesh implies congregational gathering. Rather, in the other Torah references to shabbat, I find stronger evidence for precisely the opposite..supporting staying HOME and/or resting and recreating WITH your household. And I definitely feel His “Holy Calling” on Shabbat…His tugging and reminding about what is rest and what is not, and in my moment to moment decisions in that regard, constantly “setting it apart” in my heart and in my actions.

    A messianic fellowship I am now loosely connected with has been doing these things on Shabbat:
    Meeting in another church’s building (not an issue…but causes all of the rest…)….
    Paying for the use of the building by collecting money, counting and accounting it, writing a check, and dropping it in the office mail slot…all on Shabbat (and, I might add, giving that church an excessive amount over what they asked for, because the leader does not want to “look cheap to them” in her own words).

    Meeting from 10 am to about 3 pm on Shabbat: some arrive by 9 or 9:30 to SET UP, make coffee, etc., set tables, chairs, music equipment, and stay to 3:30 or 4 to CLEAN UP, vaccuum, empty trash, put away furniture and decorations, schlep stuff out to cars, clean up dishes, kitchen, etc.

    Set order: Shema, Hatikvah, some 8 or so songs, kiddish, TWO to THREE HOURS of intensive Torah/NT MIDRASH.

    Soooo….I was truly coming away from SHABBAT exhausted!!! THAT cannot be the heart of G-d for us on his Holy Day of Rest! So, now, a smaller messianic group of us is meeting for Torah study and Hebrew lessons on Wednesday nights, and we’re getting great fellowship, support, and in depth study. We have a natural elder or two who are fairly obvious.

    We feel an urge to get together for havdalah and/or erev shabbat…but more for havdalah. We have also discussed occasional “recreational” shabbat gatherings…a picnic, some worship jam at someone’s poolside, a leisurely nature hike, a gathering at the beach or the river. I am starting to understand why maybe the first century believers continued doing havdalah and ended up getting together on the first day. Perhaps, do you think, they might have followed Yeshua and returned to a more scriptural, and not rabbinical, observance of Shabbat? Thus, the reference to them bringing their offerings together on the first day?

    I totally agree with you that it does not matter which day we “worship” on (besides, isn’t that to be at all times?). However, I will passionately disagree with ANYONE who tries to tell me that the Sabbath was changed to Sunday, or that it doesn’t matter anymore what you do on the 7th day, OR that I’m not keeping Sabbath unless I go to a “congregation” on that day, OR that the true 7th day Sabbath does not apply to “Christians.” To me that’s like saying “Creation” doesn’t apply to Christians. How ridiculous. And you are so right in your other article about the tithe…it’s amazing how people can use that Pre-Torah Law argument when they want to collect the tithe, but they won’t apply it to the 7th day.

    On your comments on Kosher eating (I like to call it “eating biblically”): Haven’t you noticed how G-d really does not separate the spiritual from the physical, throughout the Bible and Judaism and into Christianity? It’s only, in my opinion, MAN who does that (perhaps to try to justify why what he does in the physical is okay as long as his “heart” is in the right place??). In my walk of learning and applying Torah to my life, I have seen time and again that it’s all unified. The Moedim coincide with seasons and survival needs, G-d repeatedly concerns Himself with our physical health and fruitfulness, and even says that if we are careful to follow his guidelines, we will be protected from the “sicknesses of the Egyptians.” Since I have been applying Torah to my life, I haven’t been sick in over 5 years. I just got sick the first time this spring, 1 week after I ate some pork in a potsticker, even though I knew it was there. There is peace and health and fruit in my life…a result of every aspect of the application of Torah to it.

    All I’m trying to say is I don’t care how many rabbis have written about how Kosher is only an spiritual obedience matter of sanctification and has no relation to physical health, I know what I see and feel. Besides, saying that, aren’t we in danger of limiting G-d in the circle of His concern and sovereignty? He’s our FATHER…AND the CREATOR of the HEAVENS AND THE EARTH. Heavens AND the earth…get it? If your dad tells you not to eat bugs or to cross the street without looking, because he made bugs and streets, does he not know what is best for you and for the earth? I wonder what horrible problems we would solve on this planet if we all would just do two simple things…observe Shabbat and eat biblically (not to mention all the other mitzvot). How healthy would be our lands and oceans if we left the creatures uneaten which G-d has designated for other purposes…again, letting HIM set the order, not us.

    Just food for thought. Thanks so much for your blog…I really enjoy it and all the civil discussion I see here. Good work and study.

    L’shalom…b’Shem Yeshua,
    Kristen (falconress)

  17. falconress says:

    Oops…and I wanted to say two other little things:

    Another element some fellowships (like the one referred) do is the whole potluck lunch part…everybody bringing a dish, and the necessary schlepping, setting up and cleaning.

    I wanted to propose this thought: Do you think G-d may have meant us to “gather regularly” with the larger believing community more on the Moedim than necessarily weekly (not that there’s anything wrong with gathering weekly or daily for various reasons)? Do you think that many of the internal and structural, political, and personal issues that arise may be results of us trying to artificially construct ourselves into “congregations” when the only congregation we’re really supposed to be part of is the “Kehillat Israel” (did I get that right…the Assembly of Israel?) under our One Head, Yeshua? Again, not that there’s inherently anything wrong with gathering with a larger community, but perhaps we might be putting to much emphasis on the weekly gathering of that community, when it might not need such emphasis? What a joy to come together for study, ministry, G-d’s daily work, and for the Feasts.

    Again, thanks for a place to think out loud.

    Kristen

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