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Derek
You are welcome to believe what you wish. Christianity and Messianic Judaism are both false. I spent three years of my Jewish life involved in a Messianic congregation. It was the biggest mistake I ever made. You can not go about painting jesus into our Hebrew scriptures. he simply isn’t there.
Abraham had faith [knowledge and experience] of G-d not something blind has in just believe. Torah is not to be played with to fit your theology or any other. G-d is beyond your thinking and all other christians. You may twist and jam where ever you want, but the Torah cannot be affected. You see my friend, like many others it is only your soap box. Nothing more.
Christianity is a cut and paste religion, nothing more. Because of your belief system you must cling to the one liners. However if you wish to read the Torah along with the prophets from page one, you will see who is way off course. Why is that so complicated? Why not line up the two very different understandings along one another and see what Gentiles would think for themselves. Try doing so without painting and white washing the Jewish Text.
G-d does not need the blood of an individual to atone for me or you. Once the masses find this for themselves, many churches will close up shop.
Now that you have had a second chance to comment, it seems even more to be the case that you don’t actually have a specific argument to make. It’s just: faith in Yeshua is false because I, Rabbi Lawrence, don’t find it compatible with my reading of Torah and prophets. That’s rather like: you should listen to my opinion and stop having faith in Yeshua.
Well, give us some reasons, some cogent arguments.
At the very end you make one argument worth considering: that God does not “need” an individual’s blood. That is not what anyone has been saying. That is not an atonement theology worth defending or denying.
You might try reading these:
http://www.messianicjudaism.me/musings/2010/03/30/is-the-cross-laughable/
http://www.messianicjudaism.me/musings/2008/10/08/yom-kippur-atonement-and-messiah/
Blood does not atone for ones sins. However repentance does. In Temple times one was ordered to bring a sacrifice, rather it was a goat, sheep, dove. If they could not afford the above, they were to bring FLOUR, there is NO BLOOD IN FLOUR!
Also keep in mind that the sacrifice was done at the time of wrong doing. An animal sacrifice from twenty-five hundred years ago can not work for someone today.
If you knew G-d as well as you think you do, you would know that the christian thought of the shedding of blood is an abomination. According to your beliefs, G-d sacrificed a man so that many could be atoned by his blood. Please check your theology… That is an abomination.
For those who visit this blog I pray that you will consider your path and study the Jewish text for yourselves. If the christian theology is not found in the Jewish text [And it isn’t] who will you turn to?
rabbilawrence:
Let’s dissect your statement. I will put your words in italics and respond.
You are welcome to believe what you wish. Thank you. I knew that already.
You can not go about painting jesus into our Hebrew scriptures. Please quote me doing that somewhere. I’m not aware that I have done this. Perhaps you are responding to other people and not to me. But as you are commenting on my blog, do point out where I am guilty of this crime.
Torah is not to be played with to fit your theology or any other. So, how do you know your interpretations of Torah are more merit-worthy than mine? It sounds like you are saying, “Just believe.” But in the previous sentence you indicated that “just believe” was not adequate.
You may twist and jam where ever you want… Again, thank you for permission, but where have I done this “twisting and jamming.” Should I stick out my tongue and say, “No! You are twisting and jamming, not me!”
You see my friend, like many others it is only your soap box. Hmm, you have a soap box and I’m guessing it is Orthodox Judaism. Why are you allowed to have a soap box and I am not? Didn’t you give me permission at the beginning to have a soap box? Are you retracting permission now?
Derek “twist and jam” Leman
Pingback: Having Fun with Rabbi Lawrence | Messianic Jewish Musings
Rabbi Lawrence:
You are reciting the standard arguments and not even absorbing what I am saying. You want me to take your points seriously, but you won’t interact with mine? This is a one-way conversation, isn’t it? It’s the kind of conversation where you want to recite a litany of simplistic arguments, not listen to my points, and then keep evangelizing me with your points. You are acting like a Christian missionary. How ironic.
Let’s consider the argument you made (which we’ve all heard a thousand times, by the way): blood does not atone; repentance does. Of course. In one sense you are right. No serious Christian theologian disputes this. But in another sense you are wrong and the Torah proves it. Imagine going to the priests in the days of King David, for example, and suggesting: let’s cease the offerings and just repent every day at the prescribed hours. It wouldn’t fly, would it? Of course repentance is the ground of atonement, but God’s required offerings (which, occasionally can be bloodless as you say) are the requirement for expiation. There is no reason to see blood and repentance as incompatible.
Well you have missed the point of repentance. Admit and quit it. There is no sin sacrifice for INTENTIONAL SINS. when one does something wrong and he knows what he is doing is wrong, clearly shows intent. If one is aware of his or her actions, and he is also aware that G-d sees all things, then what good is sacrifice.
Aniaml sacrifice is the least of the methods for atonement. Judaism’s center is not the Messiah. while salvation is important to all, Judaism dosn’t spend its day shoving it down its followers throat.
You say that I haven’t given you any evidence. You must read the Torah for YOURSELF. Scripture jumping is by no means successful in proving your jesus.
To continue: Leviticus 17 talks about the prohibition concerning the eating of blood, not the need for atonement.
Ezekiel 18 is dedicated to this very subject concerning THE ONE WHO SINS.
Hosea 14: 2 -3 – Return, Israel, unto HASHEM your G-d, for you have stumbled in your iniquity. Take WORDS with you and RETURN to HASHEM; say to him, ‘May You forgive all iniquity and accept good [intentions], and let OUR LIPS substitute for BULLS.
We know that Hosea was an appointed prophet of G-d and there was no wrong in him. Hosea had a close hand with HASHEM, and like a prophet should, he gave GOOD instruction to our people.
As a messianic christian you know how important it is that we turn our hearts and mind to G-D. HASHEM tells us that before we offer up our sacrifices, we must first leave our offerings at the alter and make amends with those we have wronged or have not forgiven.
When one reads through the book of Leviticus [Third book of the Torah] one can see for himself that there are many forms of offerings [what some know as sacrifices]
Olah/ Burnt offering
Asham/ Guilt offering
Shelamim/Peace-offering
Minchah/communal or personal
Chatas/sin offering
King David sinned and repented… 2nd Samuel 12: 13 – David said to Nathan, “I have sinned to HASHEM!” Nathan responded to david, “So, too, HASHEM has commuted your sin; you will not die.
King David admitted his sin and was forgiven. His acknowledging the sin dosn’t undo the sin. Slaughtering all the bulls in site would not have the direct result as if one truly repents. King David KNEW what he was doing from the moment he set eyes on another mans wife.
The Torah tells us not to have statues of any kind, yet the Catholic church is full of them. G-d has no image. G-d is beyond words. HASHEM is a jealous G-d.
Isaiah 43: 1-4 – And now, thus says HASHEM, your Creator, O Jacob; the One who fashioned you, O Israel: Fear not, for I HAVE REDEMMED YOU; I have called you by name; you are MINE. when you pass through water, I am with you; through rivers, they will not wash you away; when you walk through fire, you will not be singed, and no flame will burn you. FOR I AM HASHEM YOUR GOD THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL, your SAVIOR; I gave Egypt as your ransom, and cush and saba in your place. Because you were precious in My eyes you were honored and I loved you; I put people in your place and regimes in place of your soul.
Isaiah 44: 6 – Thus said HASHEM, KING of ISRAEL and its REDEEMER, HASHEM, MASTER of legions: I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST, AND ASIDE FROM ME THERE IS NO G-D.
Isaiah 44: 21 – 22 – Remember there things, Jacob and Israel, for you are My servant: I FASHIONED YOU TO BE MY SERVANT; ISRAEL, do not forget ME! For I will have WIPED away your WILLFUL SINS like a thick mist and your TRANSGRESSIONS like a cloud; return to ME, for I have REDEEMED YOU! Sing glad song, O heavens, for HASHEM has done [wonders]; shout for joy, O foundations of the earth; break out with glad song, O mountains, O forest and all its trees; for HASHEM HAS REDEEMED Jacob, and He will glorify Himself through Israel.
Isaiah 50: 1 – 3 – Thus said HASHEM: What is your mother’s bill of divorce by which I sent her away? Or to which of My creditors have I sold you? It is for your iniquities that you have been sold, and for YOUR REBELLIOUS SINS that your mother has been sent away. Why is it that I have come and there is no man? [Why is it that] I have called and there is no one who answers? IS MY HAND TOO LIMITED TO GRANT REDEMTION? IS THERE NO STRENGTH IN ME TO RESUE? Behold, by my rebuke I dry up the sea; I make rivers into a desert; their fish become putrid for lack of water and die of thirst. I clothe the heavens in blackness and make sackcloth their garment!
The G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is my redeemer, rescuer and salvation. Neither I nor the people of Israel need a go between. Judaism is rich in text. There is none that can save but G-d and there is none that can take me out of the hand of G-d. The church has its illusions, and that is all it is.
I attented a Messianic congregation for two and a half years. I was also blind to what I was reading and being taught. To be a Jew and accept anything forign to Torah is death.
However I care not only for my Jewish people, but for all people. Gentile christians as well as Hebrew christians need to look hard at the scriptures and SEE FOR THEMSELVES. There are many wolfs in sheeps clothing.
G-d warns against these things. There is no need for blood or jesus. When the true Messiah comes, there will be no blood to be given.
The church teaches that there is a second coming, that too is forign to the Torah and our Jewish people.
G-d tells us of all things, including covering up our bathroom waste when in the fields. Don’t you think He would tell us if he was changing His salvation program.
The truth is I can go on and on. Ezekiel chapter 34 speaks about shepherds who would get fat off the choice and the rest were prey to the wolfs. While I would like that self proclaimed leaders of people would come clean, it is the masses that I am worried about. Perhaps people would start seeing fort themselves what is real and what is deadly theology.
Myth: There is no sacrifice for intentional sins.
The rabbis: Repentance transforms intentional sin into inadvertent sin.
Jacob Milgrom (Leviticus commentary): He proves that the views of the rabbis is correct.
Torah d’oraita: Leviticus 5:21-26 (6:2-7 in Christian Bibles): When a person sins and commits a trespass against the LORD by dealing deceitfully with his fellow in the matter of a deposit or a pledge, or through robbery, or by defrauding his fellow, 22 or by finding something lost and lying about it; if he swears falsely regarding any one of the various things that one may do and sin thereby — 23 when one has thus sinned and, realizing his guilt, would restore that which he got through robbery or fraud, or the deposit that was entrusted to him, or the lost thing that he found, 24 or anything else about which he swore falsely, he shall repay the principal amount and add a fifth part to it. He shall pay it to its owner when he realizes his guilt. 25 Then he shall bring to the priest, as his penalty to the LORD, a ram without blemish from the flock, or the equivalent, as a guilt offering. 26 The priest shall make expiation on his behalf before the LORD, and he shall be forgiven for whatever he may have done to draw blame thereby.
Deceit, fraud, and theft are intentional sins and yet are expiated by remuneration and sacrifice.
Derek Leman
Rabbi Lawrence:
You may wish to take the view that no other means of obedience to God is necessary besides repentance, but I would not advise it. Repentance does not negate other requirements, including sacrifice. Your logic would have made an interesting challenge to the entire God-ordained system of Temple worship. Maimonides said that the sacrifices were an accommodation to primitive Israelites who were superstitious and needed blood rituals to feel better. Your view sounds dangerously close.
Derek Leman
You may think that my opinion goes something like this: “A person who committed a transgression was put out of fellowship with God until they made an offering of a sheep or a goat.”
That is not my view and never was. The offerings at the sanctuary cleansed the sanctuary of the defilement caused by sin and impurity. The expiation aspect included forgiving the offender for defiling the sanctuary. But there was no formula of sacrifice equals forgiveness for the offender of the offense itself. Rather the offerings kept sin and impurity from defiling the sanctuary and driving away the Presence.
You have no doubt dealt with only Messianic Jews and Christians who are both ignorant of Leviticus and of atonement theory.
It does not seem to me that you have studied the matter much yourself either. I do recommend Jacob Milgrom’s commentary on Leviticus. If nothing else, you will learn some of the salient points the rabbis made about atonement, even if you don’t agree with all that Milgrom says.
Derek Leman
Readers:
Until he says something remotely resembling discussion/dialogue or some form of intelligent discourse, I am trashing every comment by Rabbi Lawrence. If he says something of merit, I will let his comment stand. Doubtless he will want you to believe I deleted his comment because his arguments were too intelligent or too spiritually powerful for me. Actually, they were nothing more than the very kind of preaching he says he resents when it comes from Christians and Messianics.
Derek Leman
hi my name is Effie, you my friend are sadly misguided as to the blood sacrifice pretaining to Jesus CHRIST. he offered once his blood for a sin atonement in so much that it cleanses the soul from sin, which the offering of animals was only a prelude of the things to come. true christian faith holds that the blood of Jesus can change man’s heart to become pure through the life and teachings of the old and new testaments by the fulling of them through Jesus Christ who had to prove himself to be holy and acceptable unto the approval of the living God, even through his death. you see God through his own son brought into play all things of being made new, even by his coming forth from the tomb on the third day, able to gather humanity back to God that had been fallen through their disobedience to God’s command not to eat of the fruit from the tree of good and evil. which they did. what a wonderful day it will be when we once again humanity can live without the terrible weight of sin for all people. for now is when the door is being opened.
It is time we moved forward.
The Sum of Total Intelligence of man has advanced considerably since Yeshua walked the streets of Jerusalem. God’s El-Shaddai, rule is now here. We live in the midst of a new era.
please visit
http://www.unavec-el-shaddai.blogspot.in